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This is [[]]. Today is [[]]. I am here in [[]] for an interview with one of our community members. Before we begin, I'd like to get verbal consent for the form we just went over. Could you please say, I consent to being interviewed in audio recorded for this study?

I consent to being interviewed and recorded.

Perfect. Thank you so much. So, first off, can you tell me how you came to live here in [[]]?

Uh, my mom and dad. My mom was born in [[]], and my dad was born in [[]], and I've, we've just been here my whole life. We had a little farm out in the country that's, you know, like I say, it was just born and raised, I brothers, and we had a lot of land to run around and play on, and it was, it was fun country living.

That's awesome. So we go way back then here with this town. Oh, yeah. Perfect. And can you tell me a little bit more about this community? Like, if you met someone new and wanted to describe this town, how would you

Uh, well, today it has changed drastically. Uh, today's standards, I would say, uh, it would be a really nice place to move to because, uh, we don't have a real high crime rate. We don't have a lot of, uh, gang activity in the school. There's a little, but, uh, our police force stay on top of it. And the people in this town are just, um, they're getting a little bits because we're so overcrowded now that you don't know some of the people around you, your neighbors. But all of the neighbors that have moved in around us that are from out of town have been been great people. I mean, they're, you know, nobody, nobody that, uh, you know, wanted to shoot or anything, or have bad words with. But, you know, it's, it is just a, it's a laid back feeling and it still has that small town feel at sometimes.

And then other times you drive through the town and you realize that, man, this place is bigger than I than it needs to be. 'cause, and it is funny because people, it, it is like, we got, we, we, we got a [[]] and [[]] decided they're going to move in, put in a [[]], and there were people in this town that were just absolutely raising all kinds of static about having another grocery store. And I mean, hey man, it is different. Give golly, give somebody else a choice. You know, not everybody likes to shop at [[]] or [[]], you know, but, you know, it's just the politics, you know, of a small town. But, uh, yeah, as far as living here, uh, I lived in [[]], grand Prairie, [[]], uh, working with my job as a carpenter, and

I stayed out. When I graduated high school, I thought to myself, man, I will, I'm, I want to get out this one horse town. At that time, there was one red light in the middle of town, and I just thought, I, I want to get out of this one horse town, get to a big city, and just not ever come back. I moved, I lived in [[]] for a little while. I lived in [[]] [[]]. I lived in West [[]]. Uh, and then I moved back to [[]] and . I had a bullet come through my apartment one night from three apartments down. And that kind of changed my mind that I need to get back to the country, , if somebody's going to shoot me. I wanted to know who it is, , and know that I probably deserved it, , but, but it is just, uh, you know, it's, it's home, you know. Um, I used to live out in the country and we moved into town,

and, you know, it's still wherever you're at. That's, that's what I love about this, this town, is that it, you just feel at home, you know, comfortable. It's a comfortable town.

Absolutely. That's great. And I've heard very similar sentiments from a lot of people. So being here for a while and even comparing it to some other places you lived, like, how would you say the community has changed? You spoke a little bit about that, how much it's changed recently, especially?

Oh, well, doing, uh, the trim work and the carpenter work. I used to work exclusively in [[]] and [[]], and I worked, uh, up in [[]] for years. And my son decided he wanted to open up a construction company and wanted to know if I'd worked for him. I said, yeah, I worked for you, no problem. And so we started, you know, it's just, I drove to [[]] for years fault, the traffic, it was horrible, you know, uh, the people I worked with were great. The company I worked for was great, but it is just, it. Back then it was, it was an hour, hour and a half drive to get to work. Now you can get there in 30 minutes because of the highways. And, uh, it is just one of those, uh, I don't know, you know, it's, uh, I just got to where I hated the drive.

And like I say, my son, me and him started doing construction work, and we've just kind of, he's built up a clientele, uh, centered around this town. And we have, uh, two, we have three or three big contractors that we work for and build, uh, trim houses for just here in this town. And then we've got, uh, a real good contractor down in [[]], uh, working out on the, the lake. And I mean, it's just in, my son's got a real good reputation with all of the, uh, contractors. And, you know, we tell 'em, they say, well, can you come do this for me over here and start this house? No, it's gonna be about three or four weeks. You're gonna have to get somebody else. And, and they tell us, we'll wait on you. And we know that we're a little more expensive, but I've seen, I taught my son well, and he's a better carpenter than I am.

And as a parent, that's what you want for your kids. You want your kids to have a better life and be smarter than you are. My son is, he's surpassed me long time ago. And, uh, I've got two boys, two girls, and boy, the boys were a lot easier them girls. Like, oh, I still want to beat my head against the wall with my 20-year-old that lives here, . But no, it's, it's, uh, you know, things are just, it is just a, you know, it's, it has changed. I mean, we had a population when I was in school, high school, uh, we had, um, around 5,000 people. And I'd say now we probably got, what do you think, honey? About 20,000? Huh? More than that. More than that, yeah. We got over probably, probably closer to 30,000 people in our community. And reason being, I think is the fact that it is a rural

community and a rural life, and that people, uh, are going to be attracted to that because like I say, it's lower crime rate, lower, you know, now there's, you know, there's, there's crack houses around and there's bad boys and bad girls, but I mean, our police department stays on top of it. And, you know, it's, it, they don't hang around very long, you know, so, but yeah, it's, it's a, it's a great place. It's about a lot of changes because like I say, we used, when I went to high school, we had one red light right in the center of town, and it wasn't really a red light. It was a red flashing light this way, and a red flashing light this way, you just , it wasn't even a red light, uh, to make you stop and go. It was just, you stopped, let the other car go and you go. And now there's probably a couple of hundred red lights, you know?

Yeah. A lot of change recently. I've seen so much myself in my short time here. So, despite all this change, what would you say are still some of the greatest strengths here in this community?

Some of the greatest strengths? Uh, I'd say the school system is probably one of its greatest strengths that we've got a really good, uh, educational system in place. And, uh, I know when my boys and girls were growing up, uh, the teachers, uh, were very involved with us to let us know how our kids are doing in school. And, you know, and it's, and and our school was, it is, I mean, they've had some bad things happening in our school. We've had guns brought to school, been some lockdowns and stuff, and some bomb threats. But I mean, you get that anywhere you go, but here it is just, you know, it is once in a blue moon, uh, you know, if hardly ever does it happen, you know, and nothing bad is gone down. I mean,

uh, there's, there've been a, a couple of kids that hurt theirselves and things like that. But, you know, it is, and I, I guess one of the other strengths is that we're, we've got, uh, three concrete companies that are around middle oath, and we got a steel plant, uh, three concrete plants. Uh, there's all kinds of [[]], you know, we've got a lot of business. And there's, it's, it's a good economy, uh, here in this town. And, you know, people work hard and, uh, it's, it's amazing. It is like me and my wife, you know, sometimes we can go by product. It's one store and a new business be opening up, and

we will go there, even though it's a little more expensive, just to support and spread our money around the town so that everybody gets a little piece of the pie. Not just go to the same store and get the same thing. And, you know, we, we switch it up and try to spread what little bit of money we do have around the other, uh, businesses and, you know, and we take pride in that.

Excellent. That's very nice. Now that we've talked about some of the positives, you wanna talk about some of the things that you think are negative about this community?

Uh, oh man. , well, don't get me started on the city council , uh, uh, some of our politicians are, how do I say this? A lot of our politicians are self-serving, and they, we feel a lot of people in town feel like they're just look for ways to spend our tax money. You know? I mean, it's like, you know, we're, we've always been a pretty meager town, and I know we grow with the times, but I mean, you know, our, our little city hall and everything, uh, they're building one now that is this huge building. And,

you know, everybody's kind of going like, man, do we really need a city hall that big? But then it's, and, and, you know, it's a mixed bag of being bad and good because, you know, they got this huge city hall, the taxpayers are paying for it, but we've got a public library in it, and it's going to be a big library, you know? And, you know, I think that's great. 'cause that gives people that hadn't got access, uh, to computers and stuff. And it gives them a chance to go in there and educate yourself or, you know, read a book or, you know, and, and like I say, it's kind of, it's, it is pro and con. There are some things that are good about it, and there's some things that are bad about it. The only other, uh, bad thing that I would say about it is the fact that, and this, this is just my age, uh, telling off on me, is the fact that we're growing way too fast.

Um, I mean, it's like three years ago when we had the big ice storm, uh, me, me and my wife and my sister-in-law, and my niece and my mother-in-law, we were all camped out in this house because nobody had electricity, and we had a gas stove and , I brought the barbecue grill in here in the middle of the living room and lit that thing, and we burned the stove, and we had electric heaters in some of the bedrooms, my wife's room. And, uh, you know, it was just because the infrastructure was just, we had rolling blackouts, and you wasn't supposed to be without power for more than about eight or nine, maybe 10 hours. And we were without power for three or four days. And being a carpenter, and

the projection of this, this area is that there, they're, they're the next 10 years, they're planning on building 400 houses a year. So it's 400 families, and that's supposed to be the trend for the next 10 years. So let's, my boy, my math is terrible right now. So 10 times 400, that's, uh, 40,000 or 4,000 mm-hmm . It's 4,000 families. It, they got to do something with the infrastructure because it ain't right to people to shut their electricity off or to sell 'em. And, uh, the, the only, and the thing with the building, the buildings and the housing is that the city council, the, and this is, like I say, this is just my age.

The, the city council does not allow anything less than about a $275,000 house. Uh, you know, there, and there are companies out there that would come in and build $1[[]],000 houses if they could. Uh, but, you know, our, our city fathers and stuff all will that'll attract the criminal element because they got these substandard houses. Well, , I live in a substandard house. I mean, it's, I got 1800 square feet, that's, you know, and, and I, I, I work on houses and stuff, got five, 5,000, 6,000, 8,000, uh, square feet in them. And, you know, and it, it just amazes me. It shocks me sometimes that, you know, what, the value of things has gone up so much. I mean, this, this lot. I live on a corner a lot. And when me and my wife bought this lot, uh, my brother lived next door,

and I got another brother that lives four houses down and across the street. And we thought it was cool that all of us get back on the same street. We had a farm that we lived on these kids and grew up on, and we kind of got scattered into the winds. And then, uh, three of us got back together. We lost one brother and a plane crashed. But, uh, we all stayed connected with each other, and we were able to do that. And I don't know of any other, you know, it's, it is, I meet people if I'm rambling, I'm sorry. But, uh, I meet people in my walkthrough life and, you know, I just, you know, they'll get to be talking about their best friend and I'll say, well, how long have you known your best friend? Oh man, I've known my best friend [[]] years. Oh, well, cool. I said, well, how long have you known your best friend? Let's see, I'm 68.

I've known my best friend for 68 years. , The guy went to school with, but we played together as babies. His mother and my mother would go to the warter and wash clothes, and me and him that put us on a blanket together. And I know we fussed and fought with each other, and we did it in our adult lives. We've actually threatened each other several times of fixing to knock your head off. But the thing is, we never stayed mad at each other. And, and you know, that that's friend. You know, somebody that can forgive you for the stuff you say or the things you do. And that, to me, that is probably one of the, uh, I know you wanted some negative things, but just one of the greatest things that, uh, I have got from living in this small town and living here is I've got friends and I see 'em,

you know, once a month, twice a month, sometimes, sometimes it's six months. But it's people I grew up with, and I know, and there's people I love. And that's the thing with this, when we were, I was in high school, man, we didn't, you know, you know, seniors pick on freshmen, you know, that's just when we were seniors, we didn't pick on freshmen, man, we all hung out. I could drink when I was 18, and I'm still in high school. And I made some money off the freshman because they go, then will you go buy us some beer? ? Yeah, sure, man. How much does it cost? Well, it's about $8 a case, and I'm getting it for $5 a case. pays for my case. But then, and you know, that's, you know, that's like cheapest I, I've ever bought gas, uh, with 17 cents a gallon. And, uh, it's, you know, it ain't that now.

And, uh, it is, it is just, but, but the, the love of the people that I grew up with, uh, it's probably been the most amazing and best thing that I've ever had about this town. And like I said, we've got, and we, you know, the, the, and one of the bad things about that is when you get to be my age, sometimes you don't see 'em until you go to their funeral. And that's hard on the soul, but it, it, it keeps you in touch too, I think with your creator that it marks the time that you only got so much time and you better make the best of it, you know? And it don't matter what situation is. If you're in a bad situation, man, turn to your friends and get out of it, you know, unless they're the ones that are causing you a bad situation and you just get away from them.

But, uh, you know, like I say, it, it is, it is. There's not anything that's really terrible other than, like I say, sometimes the infrastructure and just the overpopulation, and you look at it. But, you know, I'm a realist too, and I know that it's not going to get smaller. It's going to get bigger every year. You know, there, there used to be a lot of country, uh, that you could drive back roads and drink beer and never see anybody for hours. And now it's, I mean, it's a solid city from [[]]. There's a little bit of country, and there's a little bit of country between here and [[]]. And from [[]] to [[]] is almost solid cities. And same way going north and south, you know, there's, it is just little stretches of country and just, you know, and it's just going to grow. It's just gonna get bigger and bigger and more stores, more houses, and, you know, I guess it's progress, but, you know, old guys like me is sometimes it's too much progress. .

Absolutely. Yeah. It, it can be hard for all this change. Thank you. Yeah. And you, uh, you spoke about working as a carpenter, right? Is that

Correct? Yes, sir.

How would you say, uh, your connection to this community influenced your work as a carpenter?

Uh, rephrase that, uh, or just, I, I didn't quite hear it. I'm a little bit deaf.

Oh, that's no problem at all. Like, how would some of the connections you've made with other people in this community, how does that affect your work as a carpenter?

Oh, well, it's, it is been great, you know, because like I say, we've, when me and my son started working here local, uh, we met, we got out and we searched for the con the general contractors to put our name in the box to, Hey, y'all call us if you need something. Uh, you know, and then we got lucky because Well, how long have y'all lived here? Well, I've lived here, you know, and I tell, I lived here, you know, [[]] years and, and you know, and my son has been here basically all his life, and Oh, okay. We like local boys. And so we, we, it,

it has helped us as far as, you know, and like I say, and me and my wife, we try to keep things, uh, local is what we do. You know, it's, there's, you know, we go out to eat with, uh, family and stuff. And I mean, there's lots of great restaurants in [[]] and Waxahatchee and [[]], and we eat here in [[]] to, to give our money and our business to the fellow people in our town, you know? And, and there's a lot of people that feel that way, you know, and do that. But, uh, as far as the, the, the, how it's helped me as a carpenter is there have been, there's been times when one is the little old widow woman over here, and I know she's on a fixed income, and I know she needs some carpenter work done. And

I get a call, what would you charge me to do this? And I go look at it. I say, oh, well, I can probably do this for about $700. Ooh, that's high. Yes, ma'am. But I said, I'll tell you what I'd do. I said, can you pay me $300? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to be honest with you, uh, it's not that I'm losing money, it's just that my hourly rate went down, but you gotta do what's right. And sometimes you gotta take a hit and help somebody out over here and, you know, know, and that, that, that's, that's kind of a, you know, paying it forward type thing because, you know, someday it may happen to me that I, you know, I'm on fixed the income and I need some help and ain't got the money to do it. And, but I know

that trusting God to take care of us, he always has. We, we've been through some really hard stuff with losing family members and stuff like that. And we know that, uh, man, we've had a lot of God things hit us right in the face, and man, that was God helping us out, you know? You know, and that's another thing about this town. I don't mean to , when I was in high school, we had one high school, and we probably had about 20 churches, so, and everybody went to church. And so, you know, it was, it was pretty religious, you know, there's a lot of religious upbringing, you know, in, uh, here, in this town. And, uh, I think it's a good thing because it's like, I don't go to church anymore, but I went to church up until the time I was [[]], and I'm [[]], fixing to be [[]], so that's been [[]] years. But the older I get, the closer to the creator I've become, and my faith

gets stronger that I know what awaits me, or I, I've got a faith in what awaits me, and I'm not ready to go tomorrow, but I'm not scared of when this happens, you know? And that's, you know, and that's, that's another good thing about coming from a small town, small community, is the fact that you can do this. That you, you get to know your neighbors and you get to trust them. And I mean, I've, I've worked with people up in [[]] that I've, you know, I'm working on their house and I've been there about two, three months and, you know, and just in conversation, man, how, how are you neighbors? You got good neighbors? Well, I don't know. What do you mean you don't know? They live right next door to you. Oh, yeah. But we don't talk to 'em. How long have they lived there? Oh, we lived beside each other for 15 years. You know, we wave and say hi, and that's about it, man,

. And that's, yeah, why don't you go go over here and talk to 'em across the fence, man, strike up a conversation. You know? That's, it is just weird, you know? And I don't know, uh, like I say, I'm a dinosaur. I love being a dinosaur. And, uh, I, I like coming from a small town. Uh, in fact, I'm, I'm proud of that fact of that. I come from this town and I used to hate this town. You know, your perspectives change and, you know, you grow up and you realize that, uh, this place ain't as bad as I thought it was going to be, you know, .

Absolutely. Like what you're saying with the neighbors, it's such a common thing. Yeah. Especially in like cities where I'm living now. Yeah. I clearly relate. That's a big

Positive. Yeah. Well, everybody's, so, there's, there's so much meanness in the world. I mean, people that'll just, you know, man, they'll take advantage of you, man. They'll rob you blind or worse. And so everybody gets distrustful, you see somebody, you know, and it is, it is, and I've been guilty of this, you know, we, we profile, you know, you see some guy over here's got a lot of tats, and he's baldheaded and he's got tats all over his neck and his arms. And you instantly think, this guy's bad news. And you find out if you get to know him, you find out, man, this guy, hell, he, he's a deacon in the church and has done all this volunteer work and stuff, you know, and you know, you realize I've been wrong, but, you know, a lot of people won't give it that chance to really know this person. And like I say, me and her have done, we're proud of the fact that we do for the community and, uh,

do what we can. We help out where we can. You know, like I say, uh, she had two boys, my sons when, uh, ever I met her and they became my sons. And then we adopted two girls after our boys got grown. And, you know, and because, and you know, everybody said, man, hey, old boy, y'all are, you know, you got them girls, you raised them and y'all already raised your kids. You know, y'all, y'all, y'all, y'all. Why are you doing that? They're in our village. I, you know, I don't have any kids of my own, but I do. I got these four, I got 10 grandkids. They're not blood grandkids, but they are my grandkids. I, I took 'em home and, you know, they're going to be my grandkids, you know, even after I'm gone, you know? So, yeah. And like I say, that's, that's the type of values use

that I have learned growing up in this town is take care of your village. You know, reach out there. I, I can't comprehend a guy that runs out on his kids, or a woman that runs out on their kids or, and you know, get, get hooked on drugs and shit and just not take care of their kids. And I mean, you know, I ain't no angel. I've been down that road too, but I grew out of it. Said, that's it, man. I can't accomplish the things in life I want if I keep this going. I was 26, I decided it was time for me to dry out and quit being stupid. . Well, I don't know. I, I, my, my wife will disagree with you on that. I still do some stupid shit. . Pardon my French, other.

That's alright.

Bleeped that one out.

That's between you two. Yeah. How bad you are.

Yeah.

Back to your work as a, uh, carpenter a little bit. How long have you been doing that here with Ian?

I've been a carpenter since I've been doing carpenter work since [[]]. I started with my dad working on weekends and working summers. And then when I graduated high school, uh, I was going to join the Navy and, 'cause my dad was a Navy man, and I thought, boy, he'd be proud of me for joining the Navy. He's, oh, no, no, no, no. 'cause I had a brother that went to Vietnam and hell, I graduated, uh, the wars had been, was ending. And so in Vietnam it was over with. And he said, man, your brother, your mama went crazy when your brother's gone with worrying about him and you're the baby of the family. I don't want you to put me through that . So my dad being his carpenter, and he got me in the carpenter's union in [[]],

and basically I got a bachelor's degree in carpentry. I served out in apprenticeship and went school for four years. And, uh, I never looked back. It's, it is, to me, it's a honorable trade. I mean, you stop me think about it, , what'd it do Jesus do to make a living? He was garden . Yeah. You know, he was construction, damn construction worker, , you know, and you know, you ju I just, you know, and it, it is one of those things too that I'm proud of the fact of what I do. I build houses. I I, because of me, people can move in a house and start a new life. And I look at it that way, you know, that yeah, I have done something to help the community by building houses here. And you know, I just, uh, I don't know, it's, it is, it's, it's kind of just a big circle, like a big wheel that goes round and round and, you know, the,

that's what I, like I say, that's what I really love about this town is the fact that all of, almost, I say 99% of the people that everybody will try to take care of you, you know, if and if you're down. I mean, we had, we just had a friend of ours that, uh, had a tornado hit his trailer house and he's got a wife, two little kids, and I mean, they lost it. It just tore up. It is down to the ground, scattered out in pastures. And we got involved with helping them rebuild. And I mean, within a day or two, we, we had found them a place to live, uh, got 'em involved with the church, helping them, you know, man a house and all of this stuff and helping them get back on their feet. And two weeks later they were better off. My, my friend, he told me, he said, man, we're better off than we've ever been in our life because of you guys. And he said, man, I, I just don't understand

how you, you reach out to people like that. And I said, it's real easy. You do what's right. You know. And like I say, that's just part of the values that I grew up with. I had two great amazing parents that instilled that in me and my brothers. I mean, they was four of us and they, nobody went to jail, you know, we knew better, you know, and not a bad, not a bad one in the bunch. We made our mistakes and we, I mean, you know, because they, they might have, I, I spent the night in a jail cell a couple of times, but I never was arrested. It was because I was best friend with the chief of police's son . And so it was, Hey, you get in a car, I'm gonna take you to a bed. And, and he'd take me down to jail and we'd drink coffee and eat donuts. It happened twice. And one year he said, don't, don't make me pull you over again. If I do, uh, there will be a record. And I didn't, uh, you know, it's okay, I'll straighten up. I'll quit drinking , try it.

Oh, yeah. But, okay. Yeah,

Yeah. No, that's all right. And, um, so I guess as a carpenter, what does your typical workday look like?

Uh, typical workday usually try to be on the job at seven, go home at four o'clock. And it's, it's just, there's a lot of com, a lot of camaraderie with the guys that you work with doing construction work. I mean, you form you form relationships that last for years, you know, and it's, it is kind of corny, but it's like, it's like having a whole nother family. You got your family at home and you have a family at work. And that's why I said one of these, the guy that went through the tornado, he's one of the guys we worked with and, you know, and all of us that worked with him helped him out, you know, donating money or time and, uh, to help him get back on his feet. And, uh, you know, it's just, you know, like I say, it is, it is. And it is not just small town

people that do this. I mean, uh, when I was working in [[]] is the same way. The guys that, and there, you didn't even know these guys. They're, they're all just, we're all just a bunch of strangers. But we worked together. Some of these guys in [[]]. I worked together for 22 years, you know, and like I say, you just get this camaraderie and you get this other family that take care of you take care of each other. And so it's been good. Mm-hmm .

And you touched on this, uh, already a lot. So, uh, just like briefly, what do you think, what does it mean to you to be a carpenter in community and what brings you satisfaction?

Uh, what brings me satisfaction as a carpenter in this town? Uh, I, I think it's just the pride in what I do. You know, people, uh, they come through and they look at the houses and they, would you work on this house over here? I said, yeah, man. We went through there and looked at, and the trim work was just a immaculate, and I mean, boy, it puffs you up. Yeah. You know, it's, yeah, I did that, you know, and me and my son did that. And, you know, that it's, it is just one of those things that, you know, and it is pride in community is what it really boils down to. You know, you, you do the, and my dad's word ethnic that he tried to in, that he did instill in me and all my siblings, was the fact that if, like dad would tell me when I was working with him, he said, if you build something, he said, you build it good enough and the best you can and be proud enough of it that you'd put your name up in two foot block letters.

[[]] built this, you know? And you know, I'm [[]] years old and we're fixing to be [[]], and I still have that pride that I try to do the best I can. I have forgot a lot, you know, being old, but is still the, I want to do the best I can do, you know? Is it as much as I used to, could do. Oh, hell no. . But, but it's been, you know, it's been good.

That's great. I can definitely see how I would like, bring you joy. Like, it's like doing art. I feel the same thing when I'm like, yeah, I, I made something really cool. Yeah, it's great. But what would you say are some of the challenges? 'cause I'm sure there's plenty of challenges that come with this work too,

Keeping your body in shape. Yeah, because it's, uh, because of what I've done all my life, I, I can't hardly get down on my knees and work anymore because I spent too much time crawling around on the floor doing floor tile at, at one point. And I worked doing that for probably two or three years. And it took a toll after I was older, and it really took a toll on my knees. And health wise, just, uh, you know, straining too much, carrying too much stuff instead of, you know, carrying too boards. I'm going, you know, I'm gonna show these guys over here, I'm gonna carry four. And it just wears your body out. In fact, I'm having back surgery in, uh, about, uh, three or four more weeks, months. And, uh, you know, is, and, and that's what it's from. It's, you know, it's, it's got its

pros and cons. I mean, there's, you got a lot of pride there, but it is hard on a person's body to do what I do.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure that's a struggle. I get a little tired running upstairs, so . Yeah,

I can imagine. Well, I can't even run upstairs. I, I have to. It was his one step, two steps. . Y'all go ahead. I'll be up there in 30 minutes. You,

Okay. So now, if you don't mind, we're gonna move on from the work. Sure. Related discussion. I'm just gonna ask you a few sets of questions. Okay. And I'll read a statement to you, and you're gonna indicate what the extent of your agreement with each question is. Okay. On a scale of one to four. So if you say one that's, you completely disagree with the statement I read, two, you somewhat disagree. Three, you somewhat agree with my statement, or four. You completely agree. Okay. So one bad, four. Completely agree. Absolutely. So my first statement is, I consider myself to be an American. Would you say that?

Uh, a four. I completely agree.

Excellent. Do you wanna tell me why?

Well, I've had a military family, and my dad and my brother showed me a real big sense of patriotism and thankfulness for the country we live in. And my dad was a World War II sailor, and to me he was John Wayne. He was tough, he was rough, and he could do anything. And he was proud of the flag and proud of this country. And just by being around him, me and my brothers the same way we're Patriots. I mean.

Excellent. So on a similar tone, would you, using that same scale, would you agree with the statement I consider myself to be a Texan?

Oh, yeah. born and raised. Yep. Proud of that one too. You know, just as proud as I can be. I mean, me, and we go to, we take a lot of vacations and a lot of times we've probably been to [[]], uh, probably two dozen times, and we go to the Alamo every time we go. And Texas history, you know, we have the Texas Ranger Museum in [[]], and if you have never been go, it's, it's an amazing story of the Texas Rangers and Stephen F. Austin and

everything that is, is just, I mean, you can't help but be proud that you just born in Texas. You know, we, we jokingly t us natural born Texan jokingly refer to, well, there's, there's us, the native born Texans, and then there's the rest of the world that wish they was Texans, , you know? And it, it is a, it is pretty true statement. I mean, you know, but yeah. Damn. Real proud.

That's great. And just to clarify, where would you say you are on that scale in one to four?

All four

. I, I figured . Perfect. And I'll have to check out that museum

When I'm in the area. Yeah, it's cool. It is cool there, there's a lot of history with the Texas Rangers

Ranger. That's awesome. I I really like my history, so. That sounds great. And for our next question, I'm gonna read out three different statements and tell me which one you agree with the most. So first off, I'm American first and Texan second. Two, I'm Texan first and American second, or three being Texan and American is equally important to you.

Number three. Absolutely is. It's, you know, like I say, the, the patriotism that I've experienced from my dad and my brothers, uh, it rivals the, uh, love of the state I was born in, of being a Texan. And I, I couldn't weigh one against the other. It would've to be equal, equal, equal.

Excellent. And then for our next question, would you say to be a true Texan, you must know how to speak Spanish on that one to four scale, or Yeah, sorry. That's right.

I,

I would say we're a border country. We're a border state, and we got Mexico to the south of us. I know that, uh, there's a lot of people that don't speak Spanish in this state, but I think that it ought to be kind of mandatory in our school because it's like kids in Italy, they can speak Spanish, German, French, you know, they know four, they know four languages, you know? And it, you know, I, it makes me feel like we grew up stupid, you know, because you run in, you know, these, these people can speak four different languages and there's a lot of similarities in there, but between them, but, uh, you know, I like I say, I do, I struggle with English.

Yeah, I agree. It feels funny not being able to speak more than just English, especially being so close to the border.

And I mean, I do know a little bit of Spanish, but most of it'll get you in a fist fight or really drunk . Mm-hmm .

And once again, just to clarify, where would you put yourself on that one to four scale?

I'd say, I'd say a four.

Four. Completely agree.

Yeah. I completely agree that we, everybody in Texas needs to learn to speak two languages.

And then, um, on a similar note, would you say to be a true Texan, you also need to know how to speak English? One to

Four, I think. Yeah. Uh, a four on that one. You come across the border, you going to live in this country, you need to speak the language. Right. And don't play that. I don't hobb bl shit. because, and that's a four, you know, you need to learn, you know, because it's, this is your new country. The basic language is English. So,

And then kind of going off of that, if you don't know how to speak English, would you say you can do everything you want and get everything you need? If you can't speak English?

I, I think you can, but I think it's real hard. I think it, and that's, that's, there's a, there's a hard struggle because I think because of the fact that, well, maybe you're here illegal and you know, it's, you know, and, and people just, you know, all while they're illegal, well, uh, go, go live in their situation, you know, put yourself in their shoes that, you know, they got drug cartels that are going to kill their family if they don't take this two pounds of cocaine or 20 pounds of cocaine across the border happens all the time. So, yeah. Yeah. I'd say, come to this country, learn to speak language, you know, that ought to be one of the first things that they do.

And, sorry, I phrase that question a little funny. Like, uh, one to four. Do you think you can get everything you want done?

Yeah, I think they can. If, if they'll go through the numbers and go through, uh, the, the help that's available. Because I mean, you know, we have Spanish speaking police officers, uh, and, and they're Spanish speaking people in all walks of our life. And, uh, they can communicate and like I say, may be a little harder to find somebody, but, uh, you know, I think that they can, I think they can get it. And I'd say maybe a three on that one, because there's, there's, you know, it's, it is hard.

Perfect. And then for our last number rating question, please answer on a one to four. In my community life has been pretty stable over the past 40 years. Things haven't changed much

In the last 40 years.

Yes. That's,

I I would, uh, I would say that is a number one. 'cause it has changed tremendously. I mean, and you know, it's basically just the, the amount of people and that come into the community. And it's not just this community, it's every community around. I mean, there's, you know, it is, it is just growing and growing and growing. And I, you know, I'm, like I say at my age, I hope that I, I would not want to if they had a pill where you could, I could live another a hundred years

.

No, no. I've spent my time. Might not have been wisely, but I've spent my time here and I don't want to, uh, know, I wouldn't want to have to go through the stuff. I would really be a dinosaur that the kids go through today. I, I couldn't have been a teenager today. I mean, and we had, I mean, back when I was in school and stuff, we had, uh, hell, everybody smoked weed, you know, everybody drank, well, not everybody, I'd say probably 70% smoke weed, probably 80% drink, you know. But, you know, it's, is the time's changing, you know, it wasn't, it was illegal as hell so bad that whenever, if you got caught smoking, uh, man, they could give you 10 years hard labor.

Now they catch you smoking. It's, well, we're gonna confiscate you shit and find you $[[]]0. Yeah, no problem.

Excellent. So, uh, now we can talk, let's talk a little bit more about the community. So, um, what are, you've talked a little bit about this in the last question, but what do you think are some of the change things that have changed this in this community over the past few decades?

Uh, well, as we've gotten bigger, uh, I think people are a lot less friendly than they were when I was a kid growing up, kid growing up, everybody in town knew you, so you didn't do anything really stupid to get caught, because everybody knew your parents. And in today's community, uh, there's a lot of strangers out there. You know, it goes back to, you know, the guy that's living next door to you and you never talked to the guy. If you've been living there five years and you don't know anything about him, you know, could be Ted Bundy, you don't know. But, and you know, that's, and that's, that's sad. You know, it's, we were, we've losing that sense of, uh, family

and helping each other out. It's look out for the other guy. 'cause you don't know how bad he's going to screw you. And it, that's, you know, that's just, I guess it's natural because like I say, there's, there's some mean people in the world and, you know, and I, I, I'm sometime amazed how many good people that we still run into that are absolute angels, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah. So, going back to like your childhood, what do you think were the best parts about growing up here as a kid?

For me, uh, my mom and dad lived on a hundred acre farm and [[]] County when I was a kid, uh, [[]] County come out and dug a rock pit behind our house on our property. And, uh, used the bedrock as a road base on I 30 and I 20 going to [[]]. And we, they, what we got out of it was we got this huge Waterhole swimming hole, fishing hole out of the deal. Uh, it was a great place to, uh, party. And man, we had 4th of July parties, Memorial Day parties, and just growing up on the farm, and as a kid, we had, I could leave, I could leave my house and be gone

playing in the woods, and my mother would actually pack me a a, a lunch because she knew that I ain't coming in. And she would pack me a lunch and before I could go out and play. And, you know, and like I say, I had three big brothers and there wasn't anybody for miles to play with except ourselves, you know? And yeah, I think that that, that kind of growing up, it there've been times that me and my brothers disagree, but because of being that close with each other, growing up, it give us a sense of dedication. Like my mom and dad, it was, you know, okay, you may not like each other, but by God you better love each other, whether you like 'em or not. You better love them better stand up. It's like, if one of us come home with black eye,

well, what happened to you? Well, got in a fight at school and, you know, , he'd look at the other brothers and go, where's your black eye? You better all come home with a black eye. You know? It is, you know, protect each other, stand up for each other. And like I said, we still do.

That's great. And do you think some of this, like traditional life you've been talking about has gone away in this community since you've

Grown up? Yeah, it has. Uh, I think so. Uh, on a scale of one to four, I'd say that was probably about, nowadays it's probably about, uh, about a two, two and a half, you know? And it is simply because I think it's just simply because we're so crowded, there's so many people around, and you don't have time. We're caught up going to work, going the store, doing this, doing that, and you get caught up in your life and you haven't got the time to get to know people, you know? And that's a shame, you know? And it is not just this town. It's, it is the world. And, you know, it's, it's a shame that, like I say, that I think that every kid growing up ought to be able to grow up in the country because country life and country living, we had a, we were, we were poor, but we had cows that pe we had people, some of our neighbors that

they'd did have a couple of dairy cows, and then we, we had store bought milk. Dad had a job, and mom would go store and buy just anything we needed. But I mean, it's like we had beef cows and our freezer would be full of beef sirloin, tb bones, you know, just everything there is. But there was times we couldn't afford steak sauce, you know? And, uh, but we had neighbors that were, I mean, they, we might've been a little poor. These people were dirt poor, you know, it's, they just,

and they, and my mother would go and she told the neighbor lady, she said, well, you know, me and my kids, we like farm fresh milk, and if y'all have any extra, I'll trade you for it. So my mother bartered with them, and we were on a barter system because these are proud people. They would know, you ain't giving me nothing. I will trade you. You know, you're going to give me this, I'm going to give you something. And that's what they would do. They would give us farm fresh milk from their cows, hadn't been pasteurized, hadn't been processed and boils that stuff. Good. But that's the kind of thing that went on. You took care, you know, like say they were dirt poor and, you know, mom and daddy instilled this kind of thing. Uh, I come through, when I went to school, we were segregated. Uh, black kids went to one school, white kids went to another school. Um, my first friends

and playmates, besides my brothers, was, there was three little black kids that lived about a half a mile down the road from us. And my dad was a, he, he was a carpenter, but he was a mechanic, electrician, plumber. He could do it all, jack of all trades. And he always made sure that we either had bicycles or mini bikes, or he even bought us a car one time to make a dune buggy out of just, you know, drive around the farm on. And he would let me, him and mama would let me take my mini bike and drive to these three little boys' house. And we play, their mom and dad lived in a barn. You could see daylight through the cracks. And these people were real proud. And I grew up with these kids,

and they were my friends. And I can remember my school bus passing them. They're out beside the road waiting for the black bus. And I didn't get it, you know, and the white school bus would drive by. And I just, and one day I just, it just dawned on me, mama, why won't they, why, why my school bus stopped and picked them kids up? Because our school bus drives right by their school. And so when I was about eight, maybe nine years old, my mother had to explain segregation to me. And even at that age, I, that just ain't effing fair, you know? And, you know, and then of course, you know, we, when I was probably in about the fifth grade, we desegregated and blended into one school system. And it was one of the greatest things because, you know, there, there we had, we had some racists,

they had some racists. You know, all you black people just out screw me and all you black people outcr me. And it's the things that I grew up with. And that, like I say, that's part of the values that my mom and dad instilled in us, is you don't be prejudiced. You know, you judge people by their merit about what they can do and what they have done. And, you know, not just cause of, uh, their religion, race, religion or color. You don't do that. You know? And it's like I say, it was, that's one of the greatest things, uh, I think in my childhood was the parents. I had instilled these values in me, and I still got 'em now. Yeah. Uh, I, you know, and it's, it is true with every culture. There are bad apples in every bunch, but as a whole, man, people are people, you know? And it don't matter, you know, to me there are a lot of people. It does.

Yeah. That's a great story. Thanks for sharing. It's really interesting hearing about just how much

Well, I hate to ramble, but I mean, it's, it is, there's, you know, it's just a, you know, the, the [[]] years I've walked to Earth, I mean, I, I've seen John F. Kennedy get assassinated. I seen Martin Luther King get assassinated. I seen men walk on the moon for the first time. People today. Oh, oh, yeah, man, we've been to the moon. No, man, we've been to the moon. Yeah. You know, uh, nine 11, you know, uh, and that's the reason is, like I say, that if they had a pill, I could live another a hundred years. I don't want it. Mm-hmm . Because I don't want to have to go through. It's just going to get worse, you know, nine eleven's terrible, but believe me, there's worse stuff coming at us, you know? And,

And thanks for sharing. Don't worry about rambling. That's act, that's actually great. It's really interesting to hear. Um, but just to, I'm wrap up with a few fun questions I have for you. Okay. What's your favorite sports team out there?

Oh, uh, [[]] Cowboys.

How about them? Cowboys, .

How about them Cowboys. How about them? Texas Rangers. How about them stars? How about them? Mavericks, . Now, am I a sports nut enthusiasts and watch every game, but if, uh, [[]] is doing good, I'll watch them. If the Rangers are doing good, I will watch them. And the same way with, you know, the basketball, the stars, you know, you know. But, uh, but yeah, [[]] Cowboys my number one team.

That's great. It's a little bit of a disappointing year though. Yeah. . Yeah, unfortunately. Well,

It's like I tell people, you know, Jerry Jones has got a lot of money and with all the money he's got is just a good proven point that you cannot buy class .

Absolutely. And the next fun question. Some people think it's hard for boys and girls to be friends. What do you think

Now? I think it's real easy for 'em, or it should be. I mean, when and when I went, when I started first grade, I had never been around girls, uh, living in the country. Like I say, I had just few friends that I went over and played with and seen all of 'em were guys. And so when, man, we had, when I hit first grade, man, we had man them girls. I liked talking to them girls, did I, honey, ,

,

She ain't gonna answer that , but, uh, yeah, uh, I think it, it ought to be, it ought to be easy. Uh, I was kind of, I really was kind of a shy, uh, kid, but boy, when I, when I got opened up to him, I do like I do to you, man. I, blah, let's, let's talk, I'll give you my history, you know, and I've always been that way. I, I, and I, I don't lie about it, you know? People ask me, Hey man, you ever used any dope? I, man, I've used everything , I used everything. And I quit it. , you know, 26 years, or when I was 26 years old. I quit everything, drinking, smoking, . And, and I don't, I don't stand in judgment of people that do. 'cause I, I've been an addict, you know? And, uh, there's

programs out there though that if you want to get off and quit, you can get off quit. I walked away from it cold Turkey. I just, my mother was my best friend in this life, and she could talk to me like my mother and she could talk to me like my best friend. And when I realized I was 26 years old, and I realized I was out of control, uh, I made a phone call to her. Uh, I just, I, I damn near died, damn near ODed. And I made you a phone call to her and I said, mama, I need some help. Well, what do you need help for? What are you doing? I said, well, I'm outta control. Said, what do you mean you're outta control? I said, I'm doing too much drinking, uh, too much drugging. And she said, pack you a suitcase. You come home tonight. And I did. And it's, it's an amazing life. It's an amazing thing and an amazing journey.

Uh, I, I moved back home when I was 26 and I got myself straight and I worked hard at it. I, I just, that's it. I quit. Uh, I lost my mother when I was 28. Is, and like I say, it's, to me, it took me a long time to figure out that was one of them God things. That, that was God putting me back home because me and my mother become best friends. And we went and played bingo together. We went and hung out and, you know, it's like quitting drinking. I didn't quit just all of a sudden it was okay, instead of buying a case of beer, let's go buy a 12 pack. And then it got to be, let's go buy a six pack. My mother liked beer too. Uh, but she'd drank two, sometimes three. And uh,

you know, it's just, she was, she was one of my est supporters and I wanted to be, make her proud that I quit this. And especially when we found out that she had cancer and was going to lose her. I mean, there was no if ands or butts. And, uh, boy, that was probably the hardest thing that I've ever endured was burying my mother. My dad was tough to bury him, but my mother was tough. So I was mama's boy. But people asked me, like I say my, my life's open book. I will share my experiences with you. I will tell you the things I've done. Good. I'll tell you the things I've done bad, not all of 'em, because they're, I got skeletons and you do too. . Uh, nobody needs to know about that , you know? But you know, there ain't no use of lying about things, you know, and that's another thing, you know, with, like I say, living in this community and with my mom and dad and with

the closeness of our village when I was a kid, you didn't lie because you going to get caught in it because everybody knew, you know, my mother come up and said, you know, when I got a license, what'd y'all do last night? I found out real quick. She already knew what we done. And so after about the third time being called on the carpet and getting grounded from my car for a line, well, what'd you do last night? Oh, mom, you wouldn't believe I picked this girl up from [[]]. We went to a motel. God dang mama, she was pretty . And then I'd start really getting into some , explicit shit. My mother would go, okay, that's enough . We asked what I did last night, so, you know, I'm going to tell you the truth. And I did. I, I was, you know, I've always been that way, you know, the only time I lied was to the cops, and it was only to keep from going to jail. . And, you know,

and when my wife tries on a new dress and she goes, does this make me look fat sometimes , you know, it's, oh no, honey, it does not .

Those

Are some great stories. Thanks for sharing. I'm really sorry to hear you lost your mom

Age. I'm, she was a great lady. She was a great lady.

I'm really close with my mom too, so I can only imagine how

Hard that was. Well, well, the, the, the amazing thing, and like I say, you know, the talking about a God thing, my mom and dad both died from cancer. And God blessed me by letting me know when they were going to die. And I was able to clear the air, bury the hatchet. Me and my dad had some issues with each other. When my mom, dad died, me and my dad become, um, just like that together. I mean, we just, we forgot all the stupid shit that we used to argue with, pardon me. Uh, stupid stuff we used to argue over and . I'll tell this story and I'll quit talking when I was 42 years old and me and my wife had been married a while and our boys were up and grown teenage, and, and my dad had been in my butt over something. Boy, he was chewing it, talking to me like I was 12 years old. And boy, I blew up on him.

They had quit treating me like, I'm 12, I'm 42 years old, and you standing there and you talking to me like that. I, I've had enough of it, dad. And he stopped and he, he looked at me, his mouth kind of fell open like he was in shock. And he said, well, I guess you're right. I, I guess I have been treating you like you was 12 years old. He said, I'll tell you what, I promise I will quit if you'll do one thing for me. I, what's that dad? He said, quit acting like you're 12 . And you know, and I looked at him and both of us busted out laughing. And after that, we never had, we never had a, a bad day between us, you know? But that, I always thought that was funny. Course. Yeah. I like you 12. Yeah. God, that's

Hilarious. Damn,

Dad, I can't believe you said that to me, , because I mean, he's real stone faced, you know, just, but yeah, it's, it's, I've, I, I have seriously thought sometimes, uh, I wish that I could write a book over the adventures and misadventures I've had. 'cause I mean, it is, it has. I've had a hell of a, I've had a hell of a party in my life with my [[]] years. And yeah, I just hope the rest of it has, will be as good as what everything behind me has been.

Yeah, that's amazing. Still plenty of time to write a book,

.

Why not?

Well, I'll probably just get me a recorder and record everything. It'd be easier. My hand, my Arthur writers won't let me write hardly.

Yeah, two. And just for one last fun question before we have like a little optional thing we can do. A lot of people think the [[]]90s was the golden decade of pop music. Do you think so

Pop music? Yeah, I would, I would give that a, a three and a half or a four. Uh, of course I, you know, like I say, uh, I liked pop music of the nineties. Uh, it's some good stuff, you know. Uh, I got to witness us go from [[]] to the two thousands. I seen the turn of the century in there. You know, I was born in [[]], so you know, if I could make it to [[]], I'll be doing pretty good. But, uh, yeah. Yeah, I think, I think that was probably, as far as pop music goes, that's probably the best decade we've had.

Also. Pretty good one then. Uh, thank you for your answers and if you have a little bit of time, I'd uh, I have one last request. One of the overarching research questions through this Home to Texas program is about linguistic changes in Texas. As a part of this project, a linguistic research is asking that interview participants read a brief passage about life in Texas. It's a short made up story that was created in the [[]]80s and since then, linguistic researchers have recorded a couple hundred Texans reading it over the past few decades. They use these recordings as samples of people's standard way of speaking and they try to track how speech and change has varied and changed over time. Would you be willing to just read this brief passage out loud? Sure. Perfect. Thank you. Uh, the passage is right here. Just please read it out.

I've lived in Texas all my life. I was born in Titus County and when I was five we moved to a farm near White House, which is a southeast of Tyler. I like growing up in the country, when my chores were done, I'd ride my horse climb trees or hike down to the creek to fish or swim. One time we tied a rope to a limb of a cypress tree and we'd swing out on a vine and the spring I'd fly kites and on summer nights we'd catch fireflies, but we called 'em lightning bugs. Once in a while we'd have fights with corn cobs or pine cones. In the winter, we'd build a fire in the fireplace and pop popcorn and roast peanuts and pecans. I guess I was a live wire when I was 19, I went to work in Dallas at a fire store, Firestone Tire Company.

I didn't like city life and for a long time I'd go home every chance I got. Mama would always cook my favorite food. Fried oak hopping, John, that's rice and black-eyed peas and pecan pie. We had lots of good times, but going home is not the same. Now. After dad died, mama sold the farm, moved to Tyler. I'd rather be living on a farm right now instead of here in the city. But my wife and kids don't understand me. When I gripe about city life and talk about moving to the country, my oldest child says, daddy, that's crazy. I'll just die if I had to live on a farm. I almost cried the first time she said that. I know Texas is changing, but I try to make sure we don't lose touch with our roots. While we may live in a city, I want my kids to have a good feed feeling for the land, have a sense of place, take pride in being Texans, and if they lose our ties to the land, the price of progress is too high.

Alright, perfect. Thank you so much and thank you again for your time. Oh, welcome. I'm gonna stop the recording right now.

Uh, this is [[...]] . Today is [[...]] , and I am in [[...]] , Texas for an interview, uh, with one of our community members for the language and history interview. Before we begin, I just want to get, uh, verbal consent. Could you please say I consent to being interviewed and audio recorded for this study?

I consent to be interviewed for this study.

Alright. To get started, can you tell me about how you came to live in this community

In [[...]] ? Sure. Uh, well, I, um, received my PhD in history from, uh, [[...]] State University in 60, uh, uh, 65, I guess it was. Um, well, no, 66, but, um, I had a friend who of mine from [[...]] State, well, from Texas. We were both at [[...]] State who got a job at Texas Woman's University, so he got one for me. So I started at Texas Woman's University in the history department there in, uh, let's see, I guess it was nine, the fall of [[...]] , and I just taught there one year. Came to UT [[...]] in 66.

Can you tell me a bit more about your community here? How would you describe it to someone who doesn't live here?

[[...]] . Mm-hmm. Oh, . Well, uh, we're used to be known as a city of apartments because we overbuilt on apartments and, uh, didn't develop quite enough individual housing. Um, I'm not sure. We're much more of an apartment complex now than we were then. I, I don't think it's got any worse. Um, but you don't want too many apartments. They don't exactly pay, pay their way in a city. Um, but it's a, basically a suburban community of [[...]] and [[...]] .

I dunno, I'm not an expert on

Urban stuff. I've, I have some family in [[...]] and they're always thinking there's a, the rivalry between [[...]] and a [[...]] is so, I the whole, rather, I'd live rather die than live in [[...]] thing. Do you think that's a thing here in [[...]] ?

No. That, what is exactly sort

Of the rivalry between, uh, [[...]] and [[...]] , so to speak? Do you think there's an element of that here?

Well, yeah, and in fact, um, Originally when they were thinking of building UT [[...]] , or no, I guess it, yeah, UT [[...]] , uh, they didn't necessarily want to inherit the old [[...]] State campus. The idea was to build a campus a stride. The county line, just like the airport was later on, both counties. That way you don't have the rivalry, so you can claim both. Well, they didn't do that. Mm-hmm. They just built it on top of [[...]] State College, which in some ways was a mistake. Not only because you don't have the county line thing and you don't really have a, a foot in [[...]] County at all. And also a mistake because you inherited a lot of, no offense here, but junior college faculty mm-hmm. And put 'em in a senior college. Well, the junior college faculty is simply not up to snuff by senior college standards. Um,

so, um, we, um, you have a lot of what you would, many of us, we call dead wood faculty because they, some of 'em pretty good in the classroom, but they weren't publishing anything. And once you're a senior college, you got to publish

Publish or parish

Publish or parish. That's just about it. Um, but eventually they, they die off and you you hire a, the faculty. And then we did all right with that. UTA is a pretty good skill. Um, but we missed out on the [[...]] footing, uh, with that decision way back then. Mm-hmm. So we're Tarrant County. Um, um, a lot of the students are from [[...]] and we, we have a lot of commuter students from [[...]] and [[...]] .

Anyway, our friends go to UT [[...]] . They like it a lot, so Yeah.

Well, good. But we don't have the, we don't have the same campus atmosphere as UT Austin. I mean, you've got the drag there and you, and you've got a lot of cultural things oriented toward the college. And we don't have that. Historically. It's coming, uh, you can still see it coming, but mm-hmm. Not quite the same.

Yeah. No, campus has been, I know you're, you're a UT Lum, but campus has been a pretty crazy with all the, uh, the sports teams as of late. So I'd say the mood at UT is pretty high right now.

Yeah.

But just endless stream of construction, so.

Yeah. Well, that's the price we pay most anywhere in Texas. Mm-hmm

How do you think that your community has changed throughout your time living here?

Well, it's got more cosmopolitan. We have a lot more restaurants than we used to have, and a greater, much greater variety. You can certainly eat better now than you could when I came here in 66 in terms of restaurants. Um, and there's more entertainment. Uh, the, uh, uh, the [[...]] baseball team came then

The, the World Series Champion Texas Rangers

Baseball. Yeah, that's true. That's right. It was quite an event. Um, and of course, the [[...]] got a couple of professional football teams, two at one, one time, and only one now. Um, and then they've since, uh, gotten, uh, established more things around the ballpark. Mm-hmm

Uh, so there's more, um, oh, and six flags on Texas moved in after I got here, I think. So there's more, um, entertainment is one of the more restaurants and more cosmopolitan atmosphere than we used to have, certainly. Mm-hmm.

What do you think the, uh, strengths of your community are?

Yeah. Well, the political leadership is traditionally pre-con conservative, but also, and I'm not conservative, but it's also been relatively sane compared to what you see in some, some conservatives today who I don't regard as conservative, all of us, but reactionary. Um, and we don't have too many of the, of the book burners or the, uh, that lot, you know. Um, there's some around, we defeated one for the school board recently, but you're, you're onto 'em. You can spot 'em. Uh, so we've, and the, the county government in Tarrant County, you know, it was led by Republicans for a long time, but they were moderate Republicans. Uh, the latest county judge is not so moderate, and he's having a difficult time running the county. Mm-hmm. However,

that's also partly the fault of our own commissioner, who is a Democrat. And she's pretty difficult to get along with herself. So it's not, not all of them. Uh, so the county government, I think I would say has deteriorated recently. Mm-hmm. And Mark is caught in the county government.

Um, but, you know, that doesn't make a lot of difference in most people's daily lives. Mm-hmm. Uh, and the, uh, city is still governed by, um, moderate Republic. So, and same as [[...]] .

Uh, so I think we, politically were doing okay. And of course, [[...]] , as of 2006, was all democratic. Mm-hmm. And has been since then. Yep. All happened in one election. Well,

You know, our our mayor recently switched. He was a, got elected as a Democrat, but switched to a Republican while in

Office. Yeah. That did not please. A lot of people in [[...]] did. And I don't think you'll serve another term, but, uh, yeah. Such things happen. But that's the, the political scene. Uh, culturally, I don't know that we're any different from any other city, really. Mm-hmm.

Can you tell me about the roles and sort of the relationships that you have within this community?

Well, um, I used to be deeply involved in the community. Actually. I, um, I was elected the, uh, democratic Precinct chairman and, and as well as the election judge in, uh, 1978. And I served for, um, what would it be, from 1978 to 2020 or whatever. That's 42 years. Um, as precinct chairman in the Democratic Party, an election judge overall. Uh, and I had a Republican alternate running the election, and we always got along. Uh, so I was deeply involved in the political community mm-hmm. But even before 78, as soon as I got here, uh, I went to, um, I was politically involved in county conventions and such mm-hmm

So for a while, uh, in the eighties, I was, uh, chairman of the, um, Senate State Senate District Democratic Party. Um, when you go from the precinct that night, on election day, well, it used to be they've done away with precincts. Now, uh, you elected people to the, um, either to the county convention or to the C senate dis dis district convention in rural counties. It's just a county convention. They're all in one senate district. But here we have senate districts that go all over the place. So mine covered, uh, much of [[...]] and much of Southern [[...]] . And I chaired that in the 1980s. And I always had Jim Wright speaking and Martin Frost, I got to know these guys. Governors came up. They were democrats back then, except for, well, bill Clements wasn't, but the others were.

Uh, so I got to know state leaders too. I was also involved in the community, um, well, in Texas, really, as well as the community in the labor movement. You know, I'm writing a book on labor, um mm-hmm. But I did more than that. I, um, in 66, I got together with a head librarian at UTA, just the same semester. I arrived there. And, um, I put it to them that we ought to create a labor archives in the library, collect labor records, give the library some distinction. Mm-hmm. And he agreed with that. Uh, most all libraries have an archives of some kind. And, uh, of course you gotta build it around something. So we originally built it around labor. There was no other labor archives in the state. Now, [[...]] had some labor records, but they weren't collecting them, and they weren't doing anything with them Really. Mm-hmm. But although they preserved them,

Ruth Allen did that. She was an economics professor at UT Austin, none in the twenties and thirties. And I got to know her in her old age, and she gave some of her later records to us, . Um, So I went around the state frequently with, sometimes with a couple other professors, and we collected, uh, we went into a town and we would collect the minutes of meetings of central labor councils, local unions, um, regional offices. Um, historian from [[...]] said, we had the only regional collection of the, uh, uh, meat cutters union. And, um, [[...]] has the national collection. They didn't have, they don't have any regional collections. So they came down here to research some of our records. Mm-hmm. [[...]] was the center of, uh, a multi-state regional office for the meat cutters union. They've since amalgamated with the, with the clo? No, with the, uh,

what's the other one? Um hmm. Um, Well, the Butcher Workman, uh, I don't know, a couple of 'em merged. A lot of unions have merged, actually. Uh, anyway, um, we, and we have lots of local union records and central labor council meetings, uh, records minutes. Their meetings of Central Labor Council is a meeting, usually monthly countywide of all the unions in that county. So there's [[...]] County Central Labor Council, tart, uh, even Denton for a while. Some smaller counties have off and on. Mm-hmm. Um, Austin has one, [[...]] . Oh. And, um, they're involved in politics and they're involved in organizing. It's the two facets of labor unions. You organize the unorganized

if the authorities let you and you engage in political campaigns. Endorsed candidates, uh, worked for candidates. And I did some of that too with, uh, usually with labor folks, sometimes going door to door. I, I prefer, I prefer that to getting on a telephone. I wouldn't do a telephone.

Cold calls are hard.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cold calls. Yeah, that's right. That's what all of 'em are. Um, so I've been involved with the labor community and the political community. I know, I know a lot of, or used to know a lot of politicians and labor leaders and, um, in this community and others. And I think it enlarged my vision of life. It, uh, I didn't wanna spend all my time among academics, and I treasure them, but I treasure all those labor and political leaders I met, and a lot of lawyers to be mm-hmm. Um, 'cause lawyers were in the labor movement and in politics. So

Lawyers are in everything. They seem that they're fingering every pie.

Yeah, that's right. Well, you would know that. That's right. Um, so that gave me, um, I don't know, a broader outlook on my career. I think

I kind of wanna talk a little bit more about your career. I know you've touched on it, but, uh, just for the record, what do you do for work and how do you think your connections in this community have sort of, uh, influenced your work?

Well, um, the, uh, the political participation, uh, interested me and, uh, one of my books, uh, my major book, other than the one I'm writing now, uh, is the establishment in Texas Politics. So it's Texas political history from the late thirties, uh, into, uh, through the, um, where is it cut off, uh, through the end of the sixties, into the early sixties. Um, and, um, it was well received and still in print. Actually, the establishment takes bought it as, as a paperback. Uh, it was used in classrooms at [[...]] and other universities for a while. Uh,

of course, it's kind of dated now because it cuts off in the sixties. It doesn't, several people asked me to bring it all up to date, and we was used in the classroom. Uh, God, I'd had enough of it. It was pretty depressing. Texas political histories, depressing for liberals.

. Yeah. It's pretty crazy. My dad's always on me to read the, uh, the LBJ biographies by, uh, Robert Carroll. Yeah,

I knew Carroll. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, and then, uh, I'm a big fan of Larry Wright. He's probably my favorite Texas, um, writer. But he does a lot of odd stuff. He does a lot of, like the Scientologists and stuff. Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, that was one book. And now that my current manuscript comes from my interest in labor, um, and going around the state and so on, and so all of the time period, it doesn't match because, uh, but even learning about modern labor helps me understand labor 150 years ago. I know what they're up to.

I'm a, I'm a government major at ut so I talk a lot about politics with my, uh, friends. And I'm also in Plan two, so it's a common topic of conversation, and I don't think people understand the labor influence really at all. Like, um, the [[...]] were just at the R and c, or at least the, uh, president of the [[...]] were. Um, and, uh, like a lot of my friends who were pretty politically involved in know anything about that or why that mattered. And I, I, so I think it's really, really cool that you worked on that.

Well, it used to matter more than it does now, because labor's weaker now than it used to be. Mm-hmm. Although it's the last few years, it's coming back and you have these novel, uh, organizational efforts done by people in the plant itself, like Starbucks and some of these other, they take the initiative. It's hard for labor unions to get to them anymore because of the constraints on labor, legals constraints. Now that's eased under Biden, but whenever you got a Republican president, they put people on the National Labor Relations Board who are anti-labor, and you just can't get any organizing done. And even if you do organize, you can't get, you can't get a, you can't engage in collective bargaining in a meaningful sense because management won't bargain. Mm-hmm. But if now you've got these young people organizing the place, then themselves without any help from unions, they'll, the unions will step in later or ask for or give help if asked. Um,

and that's kind of changed the, uh, the outlook for labor. Labor's a good deal more popular now mm-hmm. The last several years than it has been. And it's great for me to see it come back like that. Mm-hmm

. So I wanna talk a little bit more about your role as a professor in politics. How did you really get involved in that?

Well, my father, um, who was raised with a Midland, Tennessee accent, in fact, I was born in Tennessee, uh, was a member of the postal workers Union. Mm-hmm. A letter carrier, and two of my uncles were in the post office day. And that, um, I learned a little about their union, uh, back in the sixties. Uh, but I think what was more important, uh, in turning me onto labor was, uh, I attended the, uh, [[...]] Convention, which meets it annually. All the southern historians get together. And Memphis, it was that year, 66. And, um, a number of the young historians there, a couple of 'em from [[...]] State, uh, buddies of mine and others all around the, all around the south, Um, met together and, uh, called a, uh, a little caucus.

And, uh, we agreed to start a southern labor history wing of the [[...]] Association. And there are other wings. Uh, you have, uh, you have a literary wing, uh, and, and when you have these little subsets, they'll have some of their own programs at the [[...]] Convention. So you'll have a, a labor panel or two or three labor panels, uh, meeting at different times of day and other panels, political panels, and uh, uh, social history panels and women's panels and minority panels and so on. Um, and some of them have their own organizations. Mm-hmm. So ours was Labor, Southern Labor. And we agreed at that meeting in, um, in [[...]] among ourselves to, uh, try to get local libraries in our institutions

to collect labor records. So that's what, that's when I went back from that convention to my head librarian and propose this, that we collect labor records. Mm-hmm. And he and I just started doing it. We drove out to United Arnold Workers local regional meeting, uh, in [[...]] . That was our first trip. Now, he didn't make any more trips. He had the library to run, but a couple of other professors helped me mm-hmm. Do that. Um, and, um, The guys in [[...]] did that. Oh. What was, uh, Georgia State, I guess it is. Or Think that's right. Whatever state universities in Atlanta. Um, they started a labor archives after we did. Um, and those two are still there. And, uh, still part of the, the archives in those two institutions. So it bore fruit at two universities. Mm-hmm.

I don't know of any other Southern Labor archives, but, but there are probably people at the University of [[...]] , for instance. And I know there are [[...]] in North Carolina that have collected some labor records, and that may have been inspired in part by what we did. I mean, they mm-hmm. They know of our collections.

So, uh, I'm a big fan of the PCL at UT in the [[...]] Center. 'cause you're allowed to just go in there and look at whatever you want. Mm-hmm. So I'd be curious to see if they have labor records, if that's just

Well, they're not at the [[...]] Center. They're over there at the, um, [[...]] Center. Oh, okay. Which shouldn't have been called that. It was originally the [[...]] Historical Center. Uh, he was somebody who did something for the university. He was a history professor way back when. Uh, but, uh, the head of it sold out, and now it's Dolf [[...]] gave him big bucks. So it, he never, he's never done anything for Texas history. Um, so it's now the [[...]] Center, but that's where the law labor records are that Ruth Allen collected. And they, and that's extensive. Not as big as ours, but it's extensive.

I might, I'll take a look at that when I go back in the fall. That actually sounds very interesting. I like historical topics. Yeah, I'm sure. So, I know you mentioned that you're writing a book right now. So what is your typical sort of workday or writing schedule look like?

Well, being retired, um, in theory, I have lots of free time, but, you know, other things go on. Life happens. And so we, we spend a good deal of time coming over here. Mm-hmm. Going to doctors, going to grocery stores. you can't, you can't spend a day writing mm-hmm. You can just spend part of a day writing. Um, and you don't want to sit too often. So sometimes I have my office rigged up where I can stand for a while.

Oh, you're standing

Desk. Get on the computer. I know that you can buy these desks that lift up. I need to get one of those. I,

Again, my dad has one of those. He really likes it.

Well, my daughters have offered to buy me one, but I inherited these great old desks. I hate to get rid of 'em. Yeah. Well,

You can put 'em, uh, on top. It's like a platform.

Well, I've done that too. Yeah. I've got, in fact, I've got a little platform that's kind of rickety. I also tend to junk up my desk where it's hard to get it down there.

, I junk up my cork board. I have, I always pin stuff and then never get back to it.

Yeah. Yeah.

What does it, uh, what does it mean to you to be a professor or sort of a political, um, activist in your community?

What did it mean to me? Yeah.

Sort of an open-ended, odd question, but answer it how you like.

Well, I think it helped bring me to life, uh, dealing with all these labor people and lawyers and academics and politics. It all, it all fulfilled me. I, I, I wanted to, uh, I wanted to do something with the, um, liberal labor community. I wanted to have fun doing it. Um, I enjoyed teaching. Uh, so it, uh, along with the classroom, um, uh, that, uh, gave me all I wanted. Mm-hmm. Of course, a marriage, two children. Yeah. It's all part of it too.

What aspects of your job brought you the most satisfaction?

Well, the most satisfaction, I guess, was, um, publishing, uh, the books I wrote. And also, um, teaching. I enjoyed teaching. Um, um, I tried to emulate the best professors I thought that I had at UT Austin, actually. Mm-hmm. Is what it amounted to. And some at [[...]] State later on. So I had Walter Prescott we up for history. He was a legend in his time. Uh, and Otis Singletary and history. Uh, um, I never knew Barker. I guess maybe he was gone by the time. Um, oh. And Gideon Shoberg and Sociology, I admired him. And then at [[...]] State, there are several more. Um, uh, and that I emulated, I tried to bring humor to the job, for one thing.

Makes lectures a little more interesting.

Yes, absolutely. In fact, some, I actually had a few students who complained complaint about, he said

He's like giving us too much of these stories, these anecdotes with humor. And they wanted, uh, I guess they wanted more serious, but not many complained about that. Um, Dr. Dr. [[...]] just died. He was in political science at UTA, uh, [[...]] . Um, he did nothing but entertain. They were laughing the whole time. All he did was tell stories, stand up. He didn't, he didn't, didn't teach him any political science, but . And I think he got complaints too, that he wasn't, that he was overdoing it, so mm-hmm. But I, but most people, they enjoyed it. I mean, he, they, he flocked, they flocked his class. So humor and humor can take over it. it never did that for me. But he was a piece of work. Mm-hmm

What were the biggest challenges that you say you had faced in your career?

Well, um,

Well, one challenge was, uh, that for 15 years, it was a challenge for the entire department. In fact, for the entire school of liberal arts, was that we had what we called a knit wit Dean. Um,

Knit wit's. A good insult. I like that.

Use that. We didn't call him that to his face. Um, but he, um, he just marched to the beat of his own drummer. He didn't care what any of the faculty thought about anything. And of course, the administration ran routine, um, ple on what the faculty thought of the dean. So every five years we would get to say how terribly he was and turn that into administration and delineate all these complaints. Never had any impact until finally after 15 years, after three evaluations, he, the administration finally decided to get rid of them. Um, usually a dean of liberal arts has the toughest job of all the days. 'cause the liberal arts faculty is generally more rambunctious, more political, if you will, than engineers and business. So,

so deans of liberal arts tend not to last that long. Mm-hmm. Nor should they, you just flush 'em out after five

Years. Nature of the job, sort

Of. That's right. . But they didn't do it. So, uh, that was our biggest challenge. It would've been a bigger challenge if I'd been chairman and the department elected me chairman two or three times, but I never wanted to serve under him, and I just turned it down. Mm-hmm. He would, well, he would never have picked me anyway. I just told him I wasn't interested. Mm-hmm. Um, and I'm glad really that would, I had good friends who became all my good friends became chairman, actually. Um, well, most of 'em. Um, but they got bogged down on the job and it delayed their research, which they really liked better. Um, it takes a certain mind to be an administrator and you gotta enjoy it. And I think I enjoy research more, and I think most historians do. Mm-hmm. And teaching one or the other, a vote. Uh, and you don't do much teaching or research as a chairman. You're just too absolve absorbed in all this other stuff. A lot of

Management and stuff.

Management.

Alright. Well, we're started moving to a different segment of the interview. Now. I want to talk about your experiences as a resident of your community. For these questions. I'm going to read a statement and then I'd like you to indicate the extent of your agreement. I'll give you an answer. Uh, you'll have to give an answer on a scale from one to four, where one is completely disagree, two is somewhat disagree, three is somewhat agree, and then four is a complete agreement. If you'd like to comment on any of the statements, uh, feel free to do that too. Mm-hmm

Okay.

Alright. So the first phrase is, I consider myself to be an American. Would you say that you completely disagree with that? Somewhat disagree, somewhat agree or completely agree?

Well, I can't escape that. I completely agree that I'm an American.

Me too. Now, using the same scale, I'd like you to rate the following statement of, I consider myself to be a Texan.

Oh yeah, I agree.

Which of the following three statements do you agree with, with most strongly? I am an American first and a Texan second. I am a Texan first and an American second. Or being a Texan and American are equally important to me.

Well, uh, being an American is more important to me than being a Texan. Mm-hmm

The next phrase is to be a true Texan. You must know how to speak English. What would you rate this one given the scale we started with?

No, I don't agree with that. Uh, I mean, uh, anyone coming into Texas who doesn't speak English would be better off if you learned it. Uh, but, um, we have people who speak Spanish and they're elderly and they can't learn a new language and they're Texans. I don't have any problem with that. Mm-hmm.

How about to be a true Texan? You must know how to speak Spanish. Sort of the flip side.

. Well, it would certainly be helpful. I wish I knew it better. Um, but no, I wouldn't say you must have to, don't have to speak Spanish.

Alright. The next phrase is, in my community, you can do everything you want and get everything you need. Even when you don't speak English

No, I don't remember that. You, you can't,

Ear. Alright. Finally. In my community life has been pretty stable over the last 40 years. Things haven't changed much. Mm-hmm.

Well, I guess my, I guess my life has been stable for 40 years, but there's been a hell of a lot of change. Mm-hmm

No, I agree with that. I'm, I'm 19 and I think there's been a lot of change in Yeah. In my lifetime. A lot less blue bonnet fields. A lot more development around. Oh

Yeah. That's part of it. Yeah.

All right. Just a few more questions. What are some of the things that have changed in this community during the last few decades?

The last, what?

The last few decades? I know we've sort of gone over that already a lot, so if you just wanna give bullet points, that's good too.

The last decades, last

Few decades.

Last few decades. What's changed? Oh, well, um, well, as I say, we've got a lot more restaurants now in the last few decades and more entertainment. And, uh, it's, um, it's a more lively community in a bigger city than it was several decades ago. And generally, I'd say it's changed for the better, except that people just keep on coming and there's gotta be Well, that's true. The whole metroplex and the whole state that, uh, overpopulation, I guess is a threat. Of course, it's a threat to the world. I've read that the carrying capacity of this planet is about 3 billion and we have, what, I don't know, 15 or 20 billion. Yeah. And, uh, we can't go on like this, but, but you know, that's the big picture.

I find the population stuff to be just really interesting. Um, that's something I've read a lot about, you know, sort of everything from Thomas mouth is to Yeah. The modern thinkers on that. I think the current estimates of the population will stabilize around 10 billion, and then we'll just learn to live with that. So I'm gonna be a little curious

To see. I'm not sure we can live with it.

Yeah, I'm, I'm gonna be serious, curious to see how it carries out, especially if, uh, you know, considering how many resources it takes for the, uh, you know, the average

American. Yeah. That's the thing. Although they keep pulling rabbits outta the hat, and they may, uh, we may actually get, uh, fusion, you know, just get energy out of walks and so mm-hmm. You know, if we can do that, then Okay. Maybe we'll make it, I don't

Yeah. Like, uh, we're always talking about running out of resources or become independent on a sort of a hostile foreign state for resources. But, uh, it seems that, like we always find a, like some American farmer finds a random store in the middle of nowhere,

And we're so far Yeah. But one theory that the astronomers have is, um, the rea one reason we haven't heard from any beings from outer space, assuming they're out there and they probably are out there, is that you get to an advanced day, a status where you can do all these wonderful things, but you've used up all your resources in the process and you die off. Mm-hmm. And that's why we, that's why we've never heard from

That's interest. That's one take on the Fermi paradox. .

Yeah, that's right.

And the aliens are actively avoiding us. Maybe

That too is another theory.

So overall, do you think this is a good community to live in?

Well, I'm not gonna trash the community. Yeah. I'd, I'd rather be in one that have more scenery. I'm like mountains and oceans and such

Geography and

Yeah. Geography. But I can complain about that. But, you know, I went where the job was. Yeah.

That's the one thing. Uh, I feel like North Texas is lacking. It would be good to have a, you know, some national parks or something around here.

Yeah. But, uh, we don't have the nationals natural scenery to go with a national park.

I suppose prairie's pretty in its own way, but not, yeah. Not everybody's cup of tea, you know.

Well, yeah. It, um, I remember I used, we used to drive through West Texas, a bunch of historians made a few trips through West Texas going to conventions in [[...]] . Mm-hmm. And I, I remarked one day this, this terrain has a power of its own. Most of them weren't from Texas. Were not from Texas. They had never seen a landscape like that. And I said, you, you've got to be kidding. A power of its own. It's just bleak. But, you know, it does. Uh, there, we, we went to a Meteor Crater, for instance, at Midland, and, uh, that was interesting. Uh, but, uh, yeah, it's, um, it's pretty hard to make a national park out of that. Sure.

Yeah. No, I, uh, I've spent some time in West Texas. We usually go out there for spring break or something. We like Big Bend a lot. It's very pretty

Awkward. Oh, big Bend. Yeah. No, that's great.

A little bit lonely, but you know, it's so dark. You can see any stars you want class

Ones, guys. That's right. You can see the stars. It's amazing.

So you can answer this next question for either yourself or for your own grandchildren, but what do you think is, or was the best part about being a young person or a kid in this community, or just Texas in general for you, since you grew up in Austin?

What was it like,

Or what was the best part?

The best part of it? Um, well, the best part of growing up was simply meeting the people I met. And some of 'em became fast friends and, uh, some of 'em are still friends. Mm-hmm. Of course, some have died along the way. Um, and, um, Austin was a neat place back in the [[...]] and sixties. Uh, we did have some scenery there, the Colorado River and the Hill Country, just west of town. Mm-hmm. As you know. Yeah. Um, and, uh, we've spent a lot of time out there in high school mm-hmm. And in, uh, and four years in UT as well, uh, with some of the same friends, uh, TRAs around the whole country. Um, so yeah, that was, uh, that meant a lot, uh, more to me than most anything else did. Yeah.

Austin's very pretty, um,

Still pretty, yeah.

Yeah. They've dammed up their, it used to be called Town Lake, the part of the Colorado that's dammed up there, but it's, uh, they've renamed it Lady Bird Lake recently. And I, I spent a, they renamed it, uh, to Lady Bird Lake.

Oh, have they? Yeah. Well, anything can be better in Town Lake. Yeah. Never agreed with that.

It was kind of a boring name, but, um, no, I, I spent a lot of time out there my, uh, my first semester and second semester at ut, so I enjoy it. So, uh, do you feel that traditional way of life sort of in your community, or Texas in general, if you like, is going away?

Well, yeah, I guess that's a fair statement. Um, uh, accents for instance, are slowly going away, uh, and especially in the cities, and especially among the college educators mm-hmm. Um, but we can get by without accidents and they, and they're not going away very rapidly. Mm-hmm. Just slowly falling away.

It sort of evolved, I think, too. Yeah.

And evolved. Um, it's not always just vanishing. It, it evolved.

Alright. So it's a little, few little miscellaneous questions at the end here, but, uh, what is your favorite sports team?

Ah, well, um, that would be the, uh, Texas Rangers.

Yep. And the next question is, how have they been doing lately? pretty good, I would say.

Yeah. Well, [[...]] . Yeah. Not so much [[...]] , but they may come back [[...]] . Yeah. Still got a lot of talent.

My, uh, my roommate was from Houston [[...]] , and she was a big Astros fan. Had a poster on the wall, huge Astros fan. She did not speak to me for three days.

After. Yeah. I can imagine .

Yeah. But it's okay. You know what, they've, they, they've had enough success. It's

Well, they have, yeah.

Yeah. We just need one thing. And they had to cheat to get it too.

They cheated once. Yeah. I remember.

All right. Another sort of random question here, but, uh, what chores did you have to do when you were younger and what chores do you sort of do today?

My parents did not ask much of me in chores. Uh, and maybe they should have, uh, um,

I did mow the grass frequently. I guess Pop did too, but, um, I remember mowing grass occasionally. Um, I guess once I got a car, I sometimes, uh, they sometimes ask me to get things at a local store that you could actually walk to, but you could drive to as well. Uh, just to pick up a few items and bring 'em back home. Yeah.

My parents do that with me too, so, yeah. That has not changed.

Right. ? Yeah. I guess not. Um, chores, I, I can't really think of any of them. Maybe I carried out the garbage once or twice. Um, they did want me to keep my room sort of need, but there was only one brother and we usually, well, we're not, we sometimes we're in the same room when we were growing up mm-hmm. Um, so we sort of had to keep it neat. And that was not a big house. So, um, at least in our early years. Um, but I don't really remember very many children. Mm-hmm.

Alright.

Now, today, I, I do carry out the garbage a lot and then go to the stores. And my wife does all that stuff too. We both do all the usual things. Sometimes she has me vacuuming and she can talk me into changing my bed.

Yeah. So these ones are truly just random questions, but have you ever told a story about another person, thinking the other person was not near you, and then sort of had like a, almost a cinematic turned around and saw that person was near you or had overheard

Um, not exactly that, but, uh, I do remember when email was first introduced. A lot of us did not understand it. And, um, one other guy and I, or maybe a couple of others were exchanging emails in a candid way and we didn't realize that one of 'em was going to a person that we were talking about. Oh,

The dreaded reply All . Yeah.

Something like that. That,

That must have been awkward.

. I don't exactly remember how we managed that. We didn't know what we were doing. Uh, but what we were saying was something that he denied. Um, but it wasn't that terrible mm-hmm. Um, and he thought he was being misunderstood. Mm-hmm. But, um, but it definitely was awkward.

I, I'll make sure not to do that. That'll be, I, I will keep this in mind when I'm using email 'cause I feel like I don't understand it sometimes.

Oh, well, yes. Yeah.

Alright. What do you think was the, uh, golden decade at least, in your opinion, of a pop music,

Pop music? Well, for me it was the sixties with, uh, Peter Paul and Mary and, uh, the Chad Mitchell Trio. And, uh, uh, the Beatles came along. I I was more enamored with folk music, but some of the Beatles were spoken be, um, and, um, well, I was with labor leaders once, a couple of 'em, I don't know where we were. We went into this tavern outside, probably outside of Austin, somewhere around Flew to real or someplace like that. And they were having a, a country singer come in. I'm more into folk than country, but they're related. And anyway, they were dragging me along. And, uh, we had the place to ourselves and we were up in a balcony, open balcony. The performer was down on stage. He had just gotten married. And he, uh, he asked us if we would sit with his wife.

So she was between me and one of the other labor guys. Uh, and, uh, he sang to us the whole time. In fact, he, in his whole career, uh, when his wife is around, he sangs to his wife always. Oh, that's sweet. Yeah. Well, it was Willie Nelson. Oh,

Wow. Okay. So that's, that's serious.

And I thought at the time, and it's just another country coronary you'll never mount. Anyway, ,

There's a, there's a mural of Willie Nelson that was by my dorm. Oh,

Really? .

That's pretty cool. Yeah,

Yeah. Yeah. He always marries a buck and blonde, and that's what she was.

Did you, uh, do you live on campus when you went to ut?

No, I, I was in Austin of course. So I drove in from South Austin to, they came, some of my friends did. Well, some of the friends I met who were not from Austin mm-hmm. All of us from Austin, just drove, drove over

Commuter student. Yeah. That's probably

Not commuting very far, but

Yeah. Probably a better, better living experience in the dorms.

Well, yeah, I,

Speaking from my experiences, I liked it. But the, the air conditioning was a little,

There are all kinds of things that go wrong in a dorm. Yeah, that's right.

That's it. It builds character.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure I kind of missed that. I kind of missed the, well, some of my buddies went to the army in the Navy and so on. And um, I'm kind of sorry I missed out on the mail camaraderie there. Mm-hmm. Uh, which I picked up later on, our faculty softball team. Mm-hmm. I really enjoyed that. Um, but then the army has a lot of drawbacks too, and

Yeah.

Would've hindered my career as far as that goes. So I never had to go. I was never called up.

Alright. Well that concludes the, uh, questions that I have. There's one more part of the interview that's optional if you want to do it. It's just reading a, a brief passage that was created in the 1980s, um, about growing up in Texas. It's completely fictional, but it's again, just part of the sort of linguistic element. If you'd like to do it, I'd be, uh, happy to have you read here on my computer, but if not, that's

Awesome. Alright, go ahead.

Alright. Lemme just get that it's not too long. I will,

You may have to enlarge a print, I suppose. Alright. Oh yeah, that's big enough. Perfect. These are not my computer reading glasses. I have several reading glasses, but I can read that. Alright. You, you want me to read it? Sure.

Just start whenever you're ready.

Okay. I'm ready. I've lived in Texas all my life. I was born in Titus County and uh, when I was five we moved to a farm near White House, which is southeast of Tyler. I liked growing up in the country, when my chores were done, I'd ride my horse climb trees or hike down to the creek to fish or swim. One time, uh, we, uh, tied a rope, uh, to a limb of a cypress tree and we'd swing out wide over the swimming hole and drop into the water. I'd pretend to be tarson swinging on a vine. In the spring, I'd fly kits and on summer nights, uh, we'd catch fireflies, but we call them lightning bugs. Once in a while we'd have fights with, uh, corn cobs or pine cos and the winter we'd build a fire in the fireplace and pop popcorn and roast peanuts and pecans. I guess I was a live wire when I was 19. I went to work in [[...]] at a [[...]] store.

I didn't like the city of life and for a long time I'd go home every chance I got. Mama would always cook my favorite foods. Fried okra hopping, John, that's, I, uh, that's [[...]] and black-eyed peas and pecan pie. We had lots of good times, but going home is not the same. Now after daddy died, mama sold the farm and moved to Tyler. I'd rather be living on a farm right now instead of here in the city. But my, uh, wife and kids don't understand me when I griped about city life and talk about moving to the country, my oldest child says, daddy, that's crazy. I just die. If I had to live on a farm. I almost cried the [[...]] she said that. I know Texas is changing, but I try to make sure we don't lose touch with our roots while we may live in a city. I want my kids to have a good feeling for the land, have a sense of place, and take pride in being, in being Texans. If they lose our ties to the land, the price of progress is too high.

Alright. That's the conclusion of that passage. Alright. So that's the conclusion of our interview. If you have any other questions, please just let me know and, uh, if you'd like a ut t-shirt or anything I can send as a thank you for this. I really appreciate it. I found this very interesting. I've done a lot of these and this has been my, my favorite interview so far. Definitely

Oh, well thank you. Yeah, well I have friends who, uh, who could tell a story like that. Yeah. And I was born in Rockdale, uh, which is small. Mm-hmm. But we moved to Austin right away mm-hmm. And so I didn't have that experience. Exactly. Uh, we would go out into the hill country in high school and do some fishing and hunting very, not very much mm-hmm. And of course we weren't very good hunters.

So I, I I really liked hearing about uh, Austin because uh, I feel like people are, my professors are always griping about how the old Austin was so much cooler. And so I told my, my parents went to ut so I told my parents about that and they were like, well our professors were also always griping about how the old Austin was cooler. I think the, uh, so I think the old Austin is just however Austin is, whenever you're like 20, you know, doing That's probably right. Young, young people things. Yeah. Yeah. That is probably right. Alright, well I'm gonna stop the recording now.